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Episode 14:

Unleashing the Power of Podcasts: How Businesses are Driving Growth with Conversations

- Trent Anderson, PodChaser

This is my conversation with Trent Anderson, Head of Podcast Publisher Partnerships at PodChaser. 

In this episode, Trent talks about PodChaser and how it seeks to solve the podcast data and search challenges in the industry.

He discusses how being a guest on podcasts that fit your niche is incredibly effective to expand your reach for those who do not want to create a podcast on their own. 

He also discusses how Startups can create their own podcasts to become a leading voice in their industry. 

Plus much more!

Trent Anderson

Chris Walker, Refine Labs


 

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Transcript

Trent Anderson: [00:00:00] A lot of folks are taking the medium so much more seriously. It's not just like an add-on or a side project when it comes to business, they're using it as the primary driver for the go-to-market motion, and that means they're interviewing their customers.

It means they're interviewing their partners. It means they're working with directly with the C-Suite, and they're addressing potential sales objections they're getting in the podcast format. So then their sales team is now enabled to actually go out and have real thought leadership out in the field.

Eric Rutherford: It is time for Build that podcast where we will discuss how you can use a podcast to grow your business and expand your influence. I'm your host, Eric Rutherford. I'm excited today because I have with me Trent Anderson. He is head of podcast publisher partnerships at Pod Chaser, which is the world's most comprehensive podcast database.

They collect, they enrich, they distribute podcast insight. To power discovery for listeners, podcasters and brands. [00:01:00] Trent, welcome to the show.

Trent Anderson: Thanks, Eric. Great to be here. And like I said in the, in the pre-show meeting it's great to put a face with a name after all of our back and forth over on LinkedIn.

So excited to be here. Yeah,

Eric Rutherford: me too. So glad to, to be able to connect and just the content that you put out on LinkedIn is wonderful. And so for everybody listening, make sure you track him down on LinkedIn. So I really appreciated that. And yeah, just the, the camaraderie from that is, is wonderful.

And before we get into Pod Chaser and Pod Chaser Pro, which are fascinating to me, so I, I'm, I'm excited. What is it about podcasting or that podcast medium that you really think moves businesses forward?

Trent Anderson: I think podcasts are so unique as a format because it's an actual dialogue as opposed to a monologue and it's done in front of audiences that are intentionally tuning in to the show.

Right. And when you [00:02:00] contrast that to basically every other way in which businesses try to communicate, Broadly speaking, I kind of call it the megaphone effect or shouting into the avoid, into the void where a corporate blog post goes up, three people like it. Nobody really clicks to it. And there's not a ton of intentionality behind it.

But with podcasts, you have listeners that are taking time out of their day. Literally clicking play. Yes, they might be doing some other things while they're actually listening to the show, but it's the intimacy of the ear. You're literally inside their head, whether they're using overt ear headphones or, or earbuds or what have you, but you're literally inside their head.

And most organizations understand that concept of getting in front of audiences. , but they think about it from talking at trade shows, doing speaking engagement, becoming a panelist in certain respects. But podcasts are everywhere all the time. And so unique in terms of format. So I think it's a great opportunity for most businesses.

Eric Rutherford: And that makes sense. And I think that is one [00:03:00] of the, the beautiful and I think often underappreciated benefits to podcasting. It is this intimate conversation. That you're really speaking to individuals within the marketplace. So let's, let's kind of jump into pod chaser. So would you tell the audience what is pod chaser and what problem does it solve?

How does it do that? ,

Trent Anderson: definitely. The podcast industry is very unique in that it's highly fragmented with relatively low nps or net promoter score. What do I mean by that? Highly fragmented. You have four key players, apple, Amazon, Spotify, and then Google slash YouTube, and they're all trying to create their own walled gardens of data insights, analytics, advertising features, and they don't really cooperate very well with each other.

Quite different than traditional media such as cable tv, broadcast tv, newspapers, to a certain extent, radio for. So you've got all of these independent players out there, and there's no real standardization among any of them. [00:04:00] So that creates a huge problem in terms of discoverability because you have certain folks that have affinity towards different platforms.

Maybe they're Spotify loyalists, maybe they're Apple Podcast loyalists, or maybe they're using a third party podcast player app and for. Us to understand how successful relatively a show is or isn't. It's very difficult because really the only thing you can do from a publicly facing endeavor would be to go into Apple and look at the.

Charts and that's great, but it's not really enhancing discoverability outside of top 100, top 200 types of shows. So our co-founders recognize that as a problem. And kind of the first iteration of Pod Chase, it was really to effectively be the Im DB of podcasts, so if you're familiar with internet movie database, it's where consumers of movie movies and television went to find their next favorite show potentially based on.

A favorite actor, a favorite genre, a favorite director, favorite writer, producer, et [00:05:00] cetera. That was really the first kind of foray into the space. So we were created initially to power discoverability for podcast consumers to find their next favorite show. From there, we added more features on top of that, that allowed businesses to understand the relative success, which.

Dubbed through listenership estimates, contact information, audience insights and demographics. And then the most recent iteration is powering discovery for advertisers and those that are putting, you know, sponsorship dollars paid ads behind your favorite shows as well. So the end of the day the discoverability aspect is something we always like to, to promote because it's very difficult to discover your next favorite show.

Eric Rutherford: It is, yeah. Discoverability is like non-existent almost in the podcast sphere. And so I, I appreciate that. I love that example, that comparison to I M D B cuz I've used it for years, found it very helpful and [00:06:00] so great comparison and it. very clear in my mind. So it sounds like as you have added on, as they have added tools, different data, different customers, different focuses you're really kind of serving two groups.

You have podcasters and you have businesses, and we can use businesses sort of collectively. How, how. , how would you define the two? Because some businesses have podcasts, you know, there there's crossover. And why do you think of them as two separate markets?

Trent Anderson: So, consumer facing site, which is just pod chaser.com, which is totally free, you can access all four and a half million shows that we have in our database, which eventually generates 1.7 billion data points.

And that's really to understand. What shows are out there, you can sort by category, you can sort much like the, the things that I said about iTunes or Apple Podcasts, but with expansion across all shows, right? So you can follow shows, you can follow creators, you can build lists of [00:07:00] shows that you've listened to.

You can share those lists with your social media followers. And it's all with the intent of increasing d discoverability for each of the shows. As a podcaster, we've already discussed how difficult discoverability actually is. It's a great tool for helping your community find your show and, and really raising the, the overall publicity and awareness of the show from the business aspect.

Now, Of course you have to start turning profit or generating revenue in some way, shape, or form. And the great thing about podcasts is there's a space for everyone. So from earned podcasts to owned podcasts, which you mentioned, as well as paid podcasts. So the tools that we offer for our business clients are gonna help them tap into all three of those angles, earned, owned, and paid.

Our first kind of tranche of paid customers on our, on our subscription. Podcast or pro platform. We're typically agencies and I'll bifurcate agencies into two separate kinds. One would be an [00:08:00] ad buying agency or maybe even a media buying agency. And of course, they're more keenly focused on paid opportunities within the podcast space.

Well, How they used to be go about doing that is contact 18 different networks try to assemble rate cards for all 18 different networks. All the networks have different modes and modalities of dis of displaying their information and almost typically always relied on a rate card. Well, that is great, but that's doing the same process 18 times over, right?

So it created a lot of headache and a lot of strife in terms of understanding what the total addressable market looked like for, you know, paid media budget. Now, on the earn side, we also had a quite a few number of PR agencies that were leveraging our initial data swath because they wanted to find earned opportunities on behalf of their clients.

And of course, when I say earned, I'm typically talking about. Guest placements, right? So a lot of their clients were saying, Hey, this podcast thing seems to be growing. We're hearing from our [00:09:00] customers that they're starting to listen to podcasts. How can we in insert ourselves into some of these conversations that we know our customers are listening to?

So that's where we have the agency side. Both paid agencies, media buying agencies, as well as the, you know, more PR or content marketing types of agencies as well. And of course business which will loose. Describe as folks that are are concerned with revenue. That also includes networks and publishers.

So these are the folks. Are attracting and coordinating a number of shows underneath their umbrella. They're providing audience development, support monetization opportunities, et cetera. And they're really leveraging the data that we have in our database to help build competitive insights, strengthen the value proposition of their shows, and again, increase discoverability as well.

So, There's a great amount of opportunity for podcasters, and you can claim if, so anyone's listening that has a, a podcast, you can actually claim your podcaster profile, which I would liken to claiming your Google My Business page. Right. And if you're [00:10:00] familiar with doing that, it's just, it's an additional layer of credibility.

It's additional layer of being able to get folks who are trying to find you at the right information at the right time. So yeah, it's, it's a pretty robust. Version and, and sometimes we even struggle with, Hey, what should we be building for, for podcasters and what should we be building for our businesses

Eric Rutherford: now that, that's fascinating.

Just all of the facets that you have. Now, you mentioned for people who have a podcast or businesses who have a podcast to, to go ahead and get their pod. Can you say that again? That pod

Trent Anderson: chaser. Yeah, you can claim your pod chaser page. And that's what we do. So in, in kind of defeating the four walled gardens in the Apple, Amazon, Spotify, Google slash YouTube, what we're really doing is open sourcing information to all podcasters.

And one of the ways that we're doing that is by allowing podcasters to claim their shows, but also provide proper contact information if they so choose links to their social media channels. And again, all with the [00:11:00] purpose. Helping consumers at large find their next favorite show, at least from the podcaster side.

Eric Rutherford: I love that. So if you're, if you have a podcast if your business has a podcast, definitely encourage you to, to go there, set up your business page and get into, into their database, into their search area. Because if you've been in podcasting for any time at all, you know how. That's a revelation to be able to, to get into one and be able to use a database like that now is, as you talked about, those different facets of, of pod chaser, is that the distinction between what would be Pod Chaser and pod chaser?

Pro is the, one is the database. The other is more of the. The pr more the agency

Trent Anderson: focus Agency and brands. Yes. But that is how I would delineate the two. Right. So the poder.com website which is publicly facing, that's where you're gonna get all of the kind of free stuff like I'm talking about in terms of discoverability.

And then on [00:12:00] the business side, we have one tab on each of the podcast pages on our website. And that one tab is called our insights tab. And. Is where you kind of pull back the curtain. You could get to see all of the, the great information such as contact information, audience insights and demographics brand sponsorship data if it's available, as well as a couple of other things as well.

So again, whether you're doing earned opportunities, you want to spin up a thought leadership campaign where you're getting your CEO booked as a guest on relevant shows they're speaking to your target audience. Help evangelize your brand at scale. That's what you'd go in and do and say, Hey, this audience looks like a great fit.

Here's the contact information for the show. Here's the reach of the show. And that's how we're gonna, you know, go down the, the earned podcast opportunity endeavor as well.

Eric Rutherford: Hmm, that makes sense. Now, part of, part of what you're sharing about just the agency, some of the PR aspects and I've, I've seen you write about just this idea also of, of guest placement of, of having [00:13:00] people to be interviewed on podcasts and, you know, obviously just like we are today as a host, you know, finding and interviewing a guest.

Let, I, I was wanting to look at really kind of both sides of that just with a, a question. So, Some businesses, they're like, I don't want the headache of, of creating a podcast. Like I don't want to own it. But yet they see the value of podcasting. how does, I guess first question is, does appearing on other podcasts help them to expand their reach?

And if so, how does that do

Trent Anderson: that? It does first and foremost, and how, it's a great question. And, and we developed a four step process for helping our clients, both on the P Connect side, which is the agency that I run as well as, Other customers that are are pure pro subscribers. And the first step process goes like this, content context, audience in reach content.

We always recommend starting [00:14:00] here because you wanna find shows that are talking about topics that are relevant or germane to your perspectives or your expertise. , right? If that's satisfied, then you move on to context. What kind of perspective do these shows have? Unsaid content. Now, if you are in the IT space and you find a show that's talking about it, but your target market is a Chief Information security officer, well, you're probably not gonna want to talk about shows.

Discussing how to penetrate corporate security systems, right? So from a contextual standpoint, the at face value might be a fit, but when you actually dive into the actual subject matter that they're discussing and the perspective onset subject matter, you would quickly eliminate that from your list of of target.

Shows to reach out to. The third part of it is audience. So again, because we have the audience insights and demographics, brand affinities, et cetera you can actually use that as an additional layer to say, yes, we are reaching the, the right audience. We pull in information from the social graph, leveraging data from [00:15:00] Instagram, Facebook YouTube, as well as Twitter.

And that's how we're able to kind of build out these personas or build out these audience insights as. Now the fourth part of this is reach and reach. Inevitably, when we start working with businesses they say, Hey, can you get me on the Joe Rogan Show? And we say, Sure doesn't quite work like that.

And they'll say, Hey, can you get me on NPR or the da, the Daily, what have you. All great aspirational types of things to do. However, what that usually indicates to us is folks and understand the actual podcast ecosystem. And again, there's four and a half million podcasts in our database, and I like to describe this as a spectrum.

On one side of the spectrum, you typically have highly clinical, highly technical types of shows where. Hosts and guests are going very deep, very technical into relevant topics. Use healthcare as an example cause we work with quite a few healthcare firms. We've got a, a gentleman we work with as a host.

He's a triple board certified physician. Five time dean of [00:16:00] academics at major medical universities here in, in the states. He's also healthcare, CEO and entrepreneur. Incredible bonafides, incredible amount of information that he can discuss and with, with great depth and insight. But he only has about a thousand listeners per month.

Now, if I compare that to the other side of the spectrum, which I would consider more mass media it's why would I want only be in front of a thousand listeners when I can be in front of a hundred thousand listeners? Well, the actual. Quality of the audience is gonna differ quite a bit, right? You wanna go super deep into, in terms of subject matter.

This is, this is the side that you should be on. On the other side, the mass media side, we've got a show that we work with. This woman's a, a practicing registered nurse. She's also appeared on a number of the Bachelorette franchise shows. I've seen her on television cuz my wife and I watch quite a bit of reality tv.

But in any case, she still talks about health, wellness, healthcare, et cetera, but she has much more broad-based appeal because she's [00:17:00] effectively an influencer. Right? So she's got a over a hundred thousand monthly listen. And then in the middle you've got a show that is hosted by a practicing cardiologist.

She goes very deep in terms of the technical aspect, but she's also appeared on reality television. So she does have some more of that mass media appeal if. The doctor's on, you know, about a thousand listens per month and the nurse is on about a hundred thousand per month. Someone in the middle, such as a cardiologist, would be somewhere between, you know, 20,000 to 50,000 monthly listens as well.

So in dissecting the spectrum, there's a place for everyone, right? And if your goals or your initiatives are to get really deep on the technical side, you shouldn't be as concerned. The total volume of listenership. You should be worried about the, the depth of the actual content you're gonna discuss, but if you have aspirations to do, Very broad-based mass media types of things, and you're gonna wanna skew further out on the mass media side as well.

So again, just to to back it [00:18:00] up, content, context, audience and reach. And then from reach, that's where we start to really look at the podcast spectrum. And, and that's the thing that. Truthfully, I try to evangelize as much as possible because most folks just don't understand that. They know that they've got 120 channels on their cable television network, and that's what they get.

Maybe they've got a YouTube subscription and that opens up a lot more channels for them potentially. But podcasts are just very different than traditional media, certainly streaming media. And I think the, the more that I can bang this drum in terms of understanding the spectrum, the better off most folks.

Eric Rutherford: Well, I will definitely help you do that because I, I agree. I, I think we need it. , Chris Anderson wrote, you know the book, the Long Tail? Mm-hmm. , which was fascinating because it, I, I just recently reread it and it was, it came out like in 2006, right? Bef, that was before Spotify. That was before all of these other streaming services, and it's like predicting everything that we're seeing [00:19:00] today.

But one of the things he, he described was the ability to be able to search and filter down into that long tail. And it sounds like what you guys are doing. Well, first podcast is a medium. allow for that long tailed niche area. But then it sounds like pod chaser is, makes it searchable. That's right.

Whereas it's not before. And so to me that's, that's a huge win. And, and if you're listening and you know, asking, Hey, is a podcast right for me? Is it right for my business? Ooh, I feel. I, I'm not gonna be a hundred thousand listeners. Just be encouraged. Like you don't, you don't need a hundred thousand listeners.

It's all about, about your niche and your audience and how you can impact them, because you can have a thousand listeners, 500 listeners, and still generate a lot of revenue and a lot of reach from your podcast. So I appreciate you, you breaking that out tr. Let me ask you this for podcasts for businesses who have a podcast, , [00:20:00] what's the benefit with partnering with somebody like you guys to find guests for their show?

Or do you do that? How does that work?

Trent Anderson: We've been doing more of that, but I will say the opposite or the inverse is actually more true. So we'll work with a brand that Understands where their audience is and how do they understand where their audience is. They do pretty detailed customer research where they're actually sitting down with a, a customer and saying, Hey, what kind of content do you typically consume outside of your normal entertainment side or even entertainment?

And inevitably they'll say, well, we listen to a podcast. Okay, which podcast do you listen to? Well, well, I'm, when I'm trying. Oriented or up to date with news information. I listen to bbc, but when I'm trying to relax and unwind, I listen to True crime. When it comes to career development, professional development, I typically log into my Spotify app and I've got two different marketing shows that I like to listen to, and I always get some golden nugget out of those, and that's what I bring [00:21:00] forward in my day job.

And you start to say, okay, great. So it sounds like you and potentially people like you Predisposition to enjoying the podcast format. You wanna do this a a couple of times, as many as as a hundred if you can, but typically, as long as you have like about five to 10 data points from actual customer interviews, that's gonna be enough signal early on to give you the confidence to say, we should experiment or we should try podcasts.

Now, trying podcasts could take a couple of different forms, right? You can own a show such as yourself, you can. Leverage other people's audiences through guest booking, like what we do quite a bit of, or you could enter into the paid podcast advertising game. Typically, don't recommend folks jump in with both feet with the advertising side of it, cuz it's, it's very, very different than a Google or Facebook campaign.

The. Guest appearance side is something we often find folks almost with like one toe in the water. Like we're, we're podcast curious. We're not quite ready to [00:22:00] commit to a full scale production. And as you know, everyone thinks it's easy to start a podcast cause they buy their micro final off Amazon.

They've got some sort of video feedback or, or on the computer and then headphones and all of a sudden I'm a podcaster. Doesn't quite work like that. So we typically recommend folks do five to 10 guest appearances before they feel really confident in the medium. And then if they want to turn that into an own channel, that's the way in which they should actually approach it.

So, We work with kind of four core verticals on the guest booking side, colleges and universities, typically with faculty members that are doing groundbreaking research and we're helping them distribute their message at scale, which is a great way for them to gain publicity outside of just kind of the, the static peer review journal process, which can, you know, take six months to six years to finally get submitted and get the information out, and it's usually rewarded with.

Speaking in front of 20 of your peers in a dusty hotel room in Rita, Nevada. Right. Not exactly a, a sexy [00:23:00] endeavor for most professors versus podcasts where there are folks that have already generated audiences and built considerable followings and they can. Again, evangelize the research at scale. The second kind of core vertical we work with on the guesting side is with healthcare organizations.

A lot of them have seen a great amount of public health discourse play out over the podcast medium. Over the last two years, thanks to the pandemic, they've taken a much more aggressive stance or proactive stance. Now, after seeing really. Different podcasters kind of dominate the, the narrative around public health.

I think probably everybody knows who, who we're talking about there. And then the third core vertical we work with are, are brands, right? And this might be the most germane to our conversation here. A lot of brands, VC backed, PE backed, or even even SMVs. , they have a, a certain problem in that if, if they're, if they're doing something very new or very innovative or they're a category creator they have great promise to change the [00:24:00] world, right?

But in order to change the world, they have to get people to actually buy into their message. And we call that kind of the crossing the chasm problem, if you're familiar with with that framework. But we've got a client in the alternative food space that is growing. Fish in a lab, and if you grow fish in a lab, you don't have to fish them out of the ocean.

And if you don't have to fish 'em out the o out of the ocean, then you're not gonna disrupt the ocean. If you don't disrupt the ocean, that's gonna make the ocean healthier, which is gonna make the the ocean more sustainable, which is going to hopefully reverse some of the effects of climate change.

Well, that's all fine and well, and we believe in the mission, and we support the mission, but in order for that to actually happen, people have to buy the lab-grown tuna fish, right? So one way in which you can help the public at large cross the chasm is by talking about very unique data, very unique founding stories, very unique insights that you have that kind of served as a catalyst why the company even exists.

And you can do that in a format that's not just, like I said before, a corporate blog post that gets [00:25:00] pushed out, gets three likes from mom, sister. Cousin, aunt, but you can actually engage in a conversation in a long form format. So if they're any minutes, 60 minutes, whatever it is, and you can take the clips from those, those videos if they, if it was a video interview, or you could take the audio and distribute that even further, even put paid media behind it to guaranteed distribution.

So that's one of the ways in which we, we work quite a bit with, with business clients and the. Kind of core vertical on on the guest booking end is, is certainly with other media and news organizations. So working with podcasters to get in front of new audiences, tangential audiences, adjacent audiences to help again, leverage other people's shows and, and unique followings and hopefully bring some of those folks back and, and create more affinity there as well.

So might have been more, more information than, You thought you were gonna get, but I think it's a really important contextual piece in terms of understanding how this all fits into the business landscape. No, and I

Eric Rutherford: appreciate that, and it is there, there are a lot of [00:26:00] facets to it that, you know, that I'm learning about that I know people listening to this podcast, they're like, wow, I didn't realize.

You know, there were this many really lanes, different angles you could take. Let me just kind of back up and, and ask you. The, the tuna example is, is fascinating, but just startups in general, do you see, sort of in your experience and, and as you look at the marketplace, do you see startups, and I'm gonna preface startups with, you know, they could be like literally still in the garage or in the basement, so to speak, to, you know, series B investments, something like that.

So, you know, they could have 50, 70 million in revenue. So it's a spectrum. Mm-hmm. . But do you see. , these types of businesses creating podcasts on their own in order to sort of become that, that leading voice. Is that a, something that is viable? I guess I'll throw that, if that makes [00:27:00] sense.

Trent Anderson: It's definitely viable from a minimum viable product standpoint.

Right. I think we've seen quite a few startups say, Hey, The industry, the market has changed considerably the way that we used to go to market, whether it was Facebook ads, Google Ads, seo, et cetera. It's fundamentally changed since the Covid era because you don't have people sitting around in conference rooms debating about which product they should buy next, or what kind of service or or offering that they're going to need.

Instead, they're relying on digital communi. Places like LinkedIn, slack groups, Facebook groups to get information from their peers. And the interesting thing about that is, , how would you capture those types of folks if they are asking for recommendations for different solution sets, whether it's a tool or software, what have you?

So one way in which I think the podcast fit greatly into that is, again, by having these organic conversations with peers and then the distribution [00:28:00] thereafter, like that. Really where the world is going. It's, it's not like how we used to see when a company would raise a Series A and about 60 to 70% of the money was earmarked for direct response ads on Google and Facebook.

That just doesn't really exist anymore. I, I personally can't tell you the last time I actually clicked on Google ad personally. Yet for about 10 years of my career, , that was the primary mode of at advertising that we used and sold the clients and and manage on behalf of clients. So it's a paradigm shift, and I think from a Starbucks perspective, if they can commit to the content game and they can understand how they're going to not just build a podcast, but then sustain a podcast.

You gotta be all in or you're all out. And I think that happy medium potentially is again, dipping their toe into the water through the guesting side. And if they enjoy the format, they enjoy the banter, they enjoy, you know, the kind of the, the net net post-haste, it's a good place [00:29:00] to start. And then you can turn those guest appearances into leveraging traffic back to your own podcast.

And I think that would pri primarily be the guidance that we give for, for many of 'em. That said, there's this great movement happening right now, especially in B2B about building a media company and I. That is probably like one of the smartest things that I, I have heard over the last five, 10 years.

It's just really difficult and in building a media company, you have to have buy-in from the top down and the bottom up that this is the route you're gonna take when it comes to building out your go-to-market motion. I can't tell you how many CEOs I've worked with where Yeah, we wanna do content. Yeah, we wanna do thought leadership.

Yeah, we're, I'm gonna write tweet threads and LinkedIn posts and all that. And when push comes to shove, they end up getting p pulled into a board meeting. They end up having to put out fires with customer success, what have you. So unless like you are truly committed to building that as like your, primarily your primary go-to market I wouldn't recommend.[00:30:00]

Testing the podcast medium instead you gotta be kind of all in or all out. But how does that compare with, with what your experience has been? Eric?

Eric Rutherford: No. And and that's kind of where I'm, I'm seeing it and it, and it's interesting that you brought up that, that. Media company idea, because I've been seeing that as well, is, you know, to, to be owner of your content, to be able to distribute, to be able to repurpose.

There's a lot of value in it, but you do have to have buy-in. It's not a, it's not a bolt on. It really is let's, you can g gain some great efficiencies, but at the same time you need to be committed to it. So, yeah, I would totally agree to that. in, in this space. That, and that, that's, I've got like, well, one question that came up and I, I saw your post the other day and so I wanted to ask that you were at you were at podcast movement this past weekend and I saw your post, you were talking about different things you observed, and then one of the things was you said, markets move.

And right now winners are [00:31:00] adjusting how I thought that. A beautiful hook. Like, okay, how are they adjusting? What did you see? And so that was, that was my reply. So I wanted to ask now, so from, from what you saw at the conference, how do you see those, the podcast winners or people in the podcast space making adjustments

Trent Anderson: right now?

Yeah, that means there's a lot of elimination of. Of frills to be perfectly honest. So instead of using three different analytics platforms, you might consolidate that, that down into one. Instead of using minimum guarantees to attract large podcasts to given networks, those are going out the window. There is a, a soberness about the industry that probably didn't exist 12 months ago, maybe even six months ago, and I think that's true across.

All businesses right now people are being asked to do more with less. People are being asked to make a dollar stretch much further than they used to. And I think [00:32:00] again, the, the podcast. Medium is so great for this, especially for businesses because like we're talking about, I'm very confident that this interview that you and I are doing right now is gonna end up in at least a couple video forms.

Probably gonna get a couple poll quotes from the, the interview as well that you can use for social media assets, et cetera. Well contrast that to how. Marketing, quote unquote, has been done in B2B historically, where you're working on a 30 day content calendar and oh, Thursday's National Vanilla Ice Cream Day.

We need to get a graphic up for that. What relevance does it have to your business? What relevance does it have to your audience? It doesn't. So I think, again, Folks are being very intentional about the amount of energy and mind share they're putting into the podcast format specifically. And, and of course podcast movement.

The conference that I was at, it, it is inclusive of all kinds of podcasts, right? So you've got a lot of true crime shows. You've got entertainment shows, you've got branded B2B types of shows. They're all represented. And when I talk about [00:33:00] winners making adjustments, It really is about eliminating the things that don't matter and getting very, very tight with perfecting the craft.

And I also, in that same post I said that talent is, is always going to beat tech. And I do believe that. And I think, again, because it's so simple to get a quote unquote podcast started up, like I said microphone, headphones, computer monitored, you're good to go. , there's a reason why they're called talent, and there's a reason why talent is the same kind of arbiter of success.

I could take a thousand shots a day at the free throw line, but I'd never be able to hit as many in a row as Steph Curry would. He's got more natural talent than I have, and he always will. So I could do 10,000 shots a day and I wouldn't even approach it. He just has some of that innate talent that's built into.

and again, I think what's, if that's the most pessimistic view of it, the most optimistic view of it. A lot of folks are taking the medium so much more seriously. It's not [00:34:00] just like an add-on or a side project when it comes to business, they're using it as the primary driver for the go-to-market motion, and that means they're interviewing their customers.

It means they're interviewing their partners. It means they're working with directly with the C-Suite, and they're addressing potential sales objections they're getting in the podcast format. So then their sales team is now enabled to actually go out and have real thought leadership out in the field.

So, Yeah, it's it's good to be in a sober space, I think, when it comes to business decision making, just because over the last 10 years it's been anything. But, so yeah, I think that's the, the bow i'd wrap on, on that post

Eric Rutherford: now, and I appreciate your elaboration on that because, I think we, we are at, I, I don't wanna say at a crossroads, but we really are at a, a sort of this new step of where podcasts can take us and I can really see the opportunities out there.

And I think really, I say it's an untapped medium. You know, you, you talked about like three [00:35:00] and a half, four and a half million podcasts out there, but yet, . I think we're just getting into the value, especially B2B, that you can provide with that podcast and with that method. So I love that. You know, you're seeing these companies saying, okay, we're gonna use this as, as one of our core pillars, and we're gonna build from it.

We're gonna do sales enablement from it. And this is across the spectrum of businesses. These aren't even, you know, huge well-known brands. These are niche healthcare companies, niche other types of startups. So if you're, listen, This is really a great opportunity for you to, to get in and, and really develop a pillar for your, for your go-to-market strategy.

So yeah, I appreciate, I appreciate you elaborating

Trent Anderson: on that. Yeah, definitely. And I, I think another piece of advice, unsolicited advice I might add for business podcasters is I said to everybody needs to get lean. I said, everybody needs to do [00:36:00] more with less. Right. How do you actually show C-suite, c f o executive level types of folks that the podcast thing, whatever we want to call that the podcast thing is working and you have to install what Chris Walker at Refined Labs has dubbed self-reported attribution, and I'll do my best to, to channel my inner Chris, but self-reported attribution.

Needs to be installed because. There's no place in Google Analytics, HubSpot, Salesforce, et cetera, where referral source equals podcast. A referral source equals podcast guest appearance, right? I haven't seen it. Have you seen that, Eric, in terms of any analytics tools? It just doesn't exist. Not at all.

Right? So what ends up happening, especially in hard times as folks typically default to what they already know, let's throw more money into Google ad. Let's hire more SDRs. Let's bring more salespeople in. , I would really challenge businesses if they, if they're tired of kind of running on that hamster wheel [00:37:00] of we need more quote unquote, leads.

Well again, as another sobering fact with it is like 97% or 99% of buyers aren't in market. , right? So how are you going to provide value? Be helpful, enable them, give them a good experience. If they're not interested in buying anything from you, well, you can inform them. You can entertain them. You can entertain them, as some people like to say it.

And I think that's the premise you have to enter into the podcast space with. And this is where self-report attribution comes in, in your contact forms, your high intent landing pages, which could be book a demo get a walkthrough, talk to sales. You're gonna have your same form that you typically use, name, email, address, phone number, company, et cetera.

But you're also gonna have one field in the form where it's gonna be, how did you hear about us? It's gonna be open text, meaning people have to type it in. No dropdowns, no radio buttons, nothing, and it's gonna be required. . Now, I hear from marketers and advertisers [00:38:00] all day every day that, oh, no one's ever gonna fill that out.

They're gonna put in gobbledygook. And I'll say, okay, what does your current lead flow look like for with your Google Ads campaigns or if you're on a Google display network? Almost all of the. Inquiries, and I've seen this have something like, oh, job description janitor, John Smith, John Smith gmail.com.

Like how many of those fake quote unquote leads do you have? And what kind of data is that actually providing? Well, it's not qualitative, it's quantitative. So when you open up Google Analytics, you'll see, oh, great. It looks like our Google AdWords campaigns are running, running Great. What actually happens to those leads and are they even leads?

So again, the self-report attribution's gonna give you a qualitative signal to indicate, yeah, if somebody hurt us on a podcast, whether it's owned or earned or paid, and that was the most impactful part of them actually reaching out in an inquiry. That's good. That's positive signal. Now you can marry that data to your quantitative data and your analytics [00:39:00] platform.

To build a much more holistic picture, but that's really the first step. Like you have to get. This qualitative insight into it in order to even showcase to an executive team that this is even moving in the right direction. Once you do show those early indicators that something's moving in the right direction, then you get to operationalize scale and pour more gasoline on out of the fire show to speak.

And, and Chris and his team at Refin Labs have developed a five step framework for this. It's called r and d process. Borrowed primarily from the commercialization process within the medical device and, and pharmaceutical space. But it's brilliant. And I would highly suggest if anybody's interested in doing that, gonna refin labs and, and checking out their r and d process.

But it all starts with the self-reported attribution angle, just because you're not gonna get that information anywhere else.

Eric Rutherford: And that is so important, the self-reported attribution. If you're not doing that, and like you say, you can just, even starting by putting the, where did you hear about us as a required field, like you [00:40:00] say, it won't hit everybody, but you will get some that you can absolutely connect.

And if you're selling well anything, but especially, you know, if you're a SaaS company, if you're a healthcare company, , if your products are multi-thousand dollars, it's really easy to suddenly say, wow, our podcast helped generate 50,000 in lead revenue, or, or whatever that is. So yeah, I, I appreciate that and we'll definitely put What was the, could you say the, the

Trent Anderson: company again?

Yeah. Refine labs. And I think it's refined Labs. Yeah, refine labs.com and Chris Walker. Chris Walker's a great, great follow on LinkedIn as well. And I do recommend checking out some of those posts cuz I think the most recent number I saw, they attribute about 60% of their revenue and their 20 million company.

But, but 60% of it comes from podcasts. So how do they know that? Wow. Self-reported attri. . Wow. You had Google Analytics say, so I'll make sure that 80% of their revenue comes from direct traffic or search of an optimization . There's just a, there's a fundamental [00:41:00] disconnect with attribution. And another coin he phrased is the attribution mirage.

And I would challenge folks that are listening to actually observe their data and say, how data driven are we? Even though that's one of their their core messages that they tell investors or, or,

Eric Rutherford: I love that. We'll put all that in the show notes as well. I'm gonna go check his, his LinkedIn out and, and check him out as well.

As we wrap up here, Trent, if people want to know more about you, want to know more about your company, about. all about podcasting in general. Where would you

Trent Anderson: like 'em to go? Yeah, LinkedIn's the best place trenty Anderson. If you just search Trent Anderson pod chaser, you should be able to find me pretty easily.

But yeah, I, I like to publish at least once a day on the platform and typically I'm publishing information that I'm seeing firsthand. And some of it might be agreeable, some of it might not be, but at the very least, I think you'll walk away a little bit more informed about the podcast. I love

Eric Rutherford: it.

So make sure to check Trent out. [00:42:00] All that information's gonna be in the show notes. Trent, thank you so much. This was incredibly informative and, and fun. I, I just had had a good time chatting.

Trent Anderson: Yeah, likewise Eric. I appreciate you. All right.

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