Podcast Marketing: What You Need to Know to Succeed
- Jeremy Enns, Counterweight Creative and the Podcast Marketing Academy
This is my conversation with Jeremy Enns, founder of Counterweight Creative and creator of the Podcast Marketing Academy.
In this episode, Jeremy talks about how podcasts help with sales enablement.
He shares one way that businesses can use podcasts to create leads.
He also discusses the Podcast Marketing Academy and how it equips podcasts to expand their reach and increase their impact.
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Eric Rutherford: [00:00:00] It is time for Build that podcast where we will discuss how you can use a podcast to grow your business and expand your influence. I'm your host Eric Rutherford and I am excited today because I have with me Jeremy Ends. He is a podcast marketer, founder of Counterweight Creative, which is a podcast marketing strategy company.
They've worked with dozens of high level business owners, helping them generate over 50 million podcast downloads and millions of dollars in revenue. He's also the creator of the podcast Marketing Academy, whose goal is to grow your podcast without guess work, and we're going to hit on both of those today.
Jeremy, welcome to the show.
Jeremy Enns: Thank you so much for having me, Eric. I'm excited to be here.
Eric Rutherford: Well, me too. I first saw your content on LinkedIn and all of the things you've been writing about and talking about, and I knew this would be just a great opportunity just to be able to share some of the really important things that you're doing.[00:01:00]
Before we get into, into Counterweight creative, into your Podcast Marketing Academy, just in general, as businesses or entrepreneurs are thinking about podcasts, what is it about podcasting that medium that really moves businesses forward?
Jeremy Enns: Yeah, I mean, I, I think that this has changed quite a bit.
I, I think that some of the, the strong points are still there, but some of the additional benefits have shifted over the past few years. And so you think about when I first got into podcasting 2015, 2016, a lot of people were just, you started a show and it was this kind of organic growth opportunity where people were just going to find it and you could actually build a pretty big audience without really differentiating yourself. You know, probably the fact that you had a podcast was the differentiation because most people, in most niches, there weren't really that many podcasts out there. And so a listener comes on, they look for a show on, you know, whatever your topic is, and maybe there's yours and one or two other ones, and there's not a lot of competition.
So from an audience growth perspective, Podcasting has certainly had that kind of phase in its its own kind of evolution [00:02:00] that is kind of, we moved out of that phase now where it is just as probably everybody who's listening to this right now. If you've already started a show, you know, that organic growth is not something that really comes all that easily to most podcasts out there.
And so there are still a lot of benefits to having a podcast, and I think especially for a more business audience, I think that really the primary benefits are from a sales enablement standpoint, almost, where when we're thinking about maybe we're not going to be getting attention through the podcast, where we're not getting our first touchpoint with people may not be the podcast, but if we can get those kind of touchpoints, that initial awareness elsewhere, and then funnel it back to the show.
As people listen to our shows over, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 episodes, especially if you're selling a high ticket offer or something like that, this is just one of the very best ways to get people to that point where they're not only willing to, you know, hand over their money to work with you, but actually excited to do so, and really you become the only option.
So that to me is the big benefit of doing a podcast today.
Eric Rutherford: I like that building a relationship, the long-term kind of sales funnel. And I think I read on one of your posts you did like, just on an [00:03:00] informal study, like it was like 30 some odd episodes, I think before people really kind of were ready to buy or purchase. Am I getting the number right?
Jeremy Enns: Yeah. So I, this was actually from, I have one data point from one student who he had, I don't know how he exactly measured this, I assume it was on a post-purchase survey. And I don't know what, how he phrased the question, but he had been able to discover that his average customer client, he was in, in real estate and had a kind of real estate coaching program of, of some kind.
And the average customer who signed up had listened to 37 episodes of his show before that. And I just thought that was so fascinating. And so now since hearing that, I, I'm kind of, I would love to. More like for the average show, I think this is really hard. Most people don't have this data. But now I've started like trying to put it out there and trying to get people to collect that data to try and understand like, okay, if you're selling, let's say like a thousand dollars product or something like that, how long across all the shows that are out there, all the kind of coaches and content creators and and business owners who are kind of working with that kind of business model.
How long does it actually take for this to happen? And I [00:04:00] think. To me, the fascinating insight was just how many people give up by episode 10 or 20? And when you think about that, at least from this guy, if we can assume that maybe that is somewhat indicative of a normal kind of sales cycle that's coming from a podcast, you think like you have to get to episode 37 before one person even has the chance.
to make that sale. And that to me has been such a, like, reassuring thought to think about, like, okay, just because nothing's happening early on, like I gotta give this some time for people to get that kind of warmed up to me, get to know me, to the point where then they hit the prompt at the right time where they then go and make the, the sale.
So I think a good thing to keep in mind for sure. I
Eric Rutherford: agree and that that is comforting, right? You, you just keep putting content out. You keep putting the good content out and it takes some pressure off. It's like, okay, after episode five, episode 10, I'm not where I want to be. That's okay. You just kind of play the long game and really see, see that sales funnel kind of.
Really roll in later on. Obviously if it happens early, that's great, but you know, don't give up hope .
Jeremy Enns: And another thing to add to that I think [00:05:00] this is true for any content medium, but I think for podcasting certainly is there's this, let's say it takes you know, six months before you get that first sale, and let's say every person that comes into your podcast, it takes them six months before they buy from you.
That first six months is going to be the longest. There's going to be nobody who buys within that six months, but after that point, then you're going to have a steady stream of these cohorts of people who've entered your show in a kind of rolling cycles. And so now you have a constant stream of people buying your program or whatever. Maybe it's one person may at the start, maybe you weren't getting that many people in. But I think that that to me is something that keeps me going when it comes to content too, is assuming it takes six months to get somebody in the first six months, I can expect zero people.
And then after that it's kind of like, how many people that entered my funnel six months ago and whatever that conversion rate is, might be what I expect. And so it almost kind of helps you. I think one of the things. It is so frustrating with marketing is this lack of certainty. It's like how do we know should we be keep doing this thing or not?
And I think when you start to break it down, and you'll have to pull this from your own kind of benchmark data from your own show, but you can kind of understand how people interact with your ecosystem and that gives you a lot more kind [00:06:00] of motivation to stay the course and keep going or make changes if it's not working.
Eric Rutherford: No, that makes sense. And yeah, it's, it's comforting once you get into the funnel, it, it's like, okay, at that point in time it, it begins to flow and you can take some comfort in that. But you're right. When you're marketing things, you're doing it with as much strategy as possible, but at the same time, it may or may not work.
I mean, it's. So that's, that's tough. And, and that kind of rolls into really what Counterweight Creative is doing. So tell me about Counterweight Creative. What problems are you solving for businesses and podcasters?
Jeremy Enns: Yeah, so at this point I guess the, the, the short version of the backstory is that we started out, well, essentially I started out as a podcast editor and producer just a freelancer in 2016 and ended up building a team of production agency.
And so we still have a few, maybe like three or four production clients left, but have been kind of have, have now officially made the kind of pivot away from production in, into marketing strategy. And so [00:07:00] this is kind of, I guess three years ago at this point is when I kind of first developed the idea for what became Podcast Marketing Academy, and at that time I was really like this was going to be building out this course for my existing clients.
And so I was doing a bit of growth consulting with them at that point, but it was way more production focused. That wasn't really what I was known for at that point. But now, kind of three years later, I've kind of built my whole brand around the marketing side of things, and that's the, the place where I find the most excitement and energy and actually love studying that the most.
And so now there's been this course here for a while, which, you know, certainly attracts a certain kind of customer. And then there's also been more demand for bigger businesses, higher level customers for more kind of one-on-one strategy and that kind of thing. And so that's where now we've kind of pivot.
Really, I, I didn't, for a long time, I didn't really pivot counterweight creative away from production. And at one point it became clear that just the clothes didn't fit anymore and realized that, okay, like I, I really need to switch things over here and really go all in on growth. That's what all the, my content I create is around, and I, I just don't have the business set up.
It was kind of this disconnect where people would go to the website, They'd see production, and I would find myself on sales calls with people [00:08:00] looking for podcast production. I'd be talking them out of hiring us, and I'd say like, well actually, you know, maybe you should go to these guys over here and, you know, if you want strategy support, like, you know, you should talk to me then.
And I realize like, oh, I, I think I have a huge positioning problem with my website. All the copy is towards production. So at this point now, we're a hundred percent all in on the marketing strategy side of things. And that can take a number of, of different forms from building up custom growth plans to doing podcast and marketing.
To more kind of custom one-on-one consulting solutions as well. I love
Eric Rutherford: that. I love that you, you at least recognize what. Where you were at, what kind of the questions you were getting, and then it's like, okay, I need to make this adjustment to really, you know, when you, when you find yourself referring more business to other people than actually keeping, that's a good indicator.
Yeah. But at the same time, you know, it's good getting that feedback right, of, Hey, we're really trying to figure out strategy. We're really trying to figure out how we can grow this thing. And that is tough because like you say, it's not a, it's, it's not a nice linear progression of [00:09:00] growth. So how, how do podcasts or businesses or content creators, how do they know if their podcast is actually reaching the
Jeremy Enns: correct market?
Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of people. Are targeting the wrong market from the start. And so I think part of it is like, who are you intentionally trying to reach? And first of all, is that actually the right audience for your product? I think with businesses this is way easier than people who just like have this idea for a podcast that is totally detached from any kind of existing product or service.
Then you're just kind of, you gotta just put it out there and see who it attracts and then you gotta find out like, what's the through line here that I can find out? You know, what ties these people together so I can find more of them. If you have a product or service, I mean, Marketing, I think is so often like we have, it's all tied together.
There's the business and the product, and then there's the podcast. And ideally all of these are in alignment. And so we are attracting people who are hopefully to the podcast who are hopefully our ideal customers. But if we don't have any idea of who our ideal customers are, which many businesses don't, and I might even say most businesses don't, then we gotta figure that out [00:10:00] first.
And I think that a lot of businesses in. Take this approach, and I've certainly done this in the past as well, and we always, I think, constantly feel that that pull is that we just wanna get as many people as possible who are generally interested in our topic and then they'll kind of filter down into our products and services.
And yeah, not everybody's going to buy, but you know better to have like 10,000 people listening to the show and you know, 50 of those buy than, than otherwise. But I, I think the problem with that, That it, it's actually this kind of like useless metric. What does it matter? I mean, and I suppose if we're selling ads or something like that as well, then you know, more, more scale, more podcast downloads, that helps.
But I think it makes actually attracting those initial, you know, if we wanna get 50 sales, it would be way faster probably. It might take us, if we're aiming at a way broader market, maybe it takes us three years to get those 50 sales, where if we just immediately went to those 50 people and tailored our messaging specifically to them.
Maybe we only ever get 75 loyal listers, but 50 of those people buy within the first year. And so it's actually way faster for our ultimate goal to get sales. And so I think the first step is, is kind of understanding like, well, who is [00:11:00] my actual ideal customer? Because that's the person I wanna get into the show.
From there, we're going to look at, okay, the content needs to appeal to that person. Our messaging needs to appeal to that person. We need to actually look at where is that person already spending their time online and how can we position ourselves in that area so that we get exposure. And then, you know, kind of if you're able to get any like interview data back from them, if you're able to get on calls with existing listeners, do survey data, then you can kind of see as well, like, I mean, I guess the first indicators are those people buying your product and if you're working with them, are they the right people?
If it's you're not getting sales, but you're just have listeners, then it would be looking at like, how can I interact with these people in some way and get a sense of like, are these really the people that I'm wanting to attract or should I be aiming a little bit elsewhere? And I think, at least in my experience, sometimes it takes actually getting that perfect person.
To actually understand like, oh, like I was kind of close and I was attracting like a lot of decent people as a pretty good mix, but like, this is actually the person that makes the most sense for me. And we can, we can talk a bit more about this. I had a realization kind of recently with, with Podcast Marketing Academy of that if it's interesting to [00:12:00] go into more.
Eric Rutherford: Yeah. No, and that, that makes sense. It's, it sounds like, and, and I think a lot of people will start out with the content aspect and not necessarily think of, Ooh, who is my ideal customer, ideal listener. It's like we start at the wrong spot. .
Jeremy Enns: Yeah. . Yeah. Almost always.
Eric Rutherford: But, but, but then it sounds like too, it's a process, right?
You, you start, you, you then figure that out. You adjust. You think you get close, and then you just keep adjusting till you find sort of that, truly that ideal customer. So it's, it's okay to start out imperfect as long as you're moving in the right direction.
Jeremy Enns: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think that for me, that was one of the most freeing ideas around marketing in the past was realizing that the best marketers start with the hypothesis and are usually wrong.
And it's about narrowing down as you, you kind of like continue to, you know, put stuff out in the world and experiment, listen back and. I remember, like I am somebody who came into marketing from a more creative artistic background and hated the idea of marketing and didn't wanna do any [00:13:00] marketing and thought marketing was sleazy.
And so a, a lot of that was around, there was a lot of imposter syndrome around thinking that, you know, marketers just had this incredible talent to just, you know, write copy or whatever it was to just drum up demand instantly. And a few things that I've realized since as I've gone, you know, done a, a way deeper dive into the world of marketing and kind of become obsessed with it, is that it's kind of just starting with the assumption that you don't actually know anything until you.
Actually trying to market. And it's only after that point that you're actually going to start to get some, some insights into what works with your audience, for your product, with your personality and all of that. And I think that that understanding too, that like. Nobody for anybody listening to this, nobody has ever successfully grown your show before.
And so there are a bunch of frameworks. There are a bunch of best practices, but nobody's actually put any of it to use for you. And so you can look at, there are dozens of ways to grow a show and not all of them will work for every show. And some of them, you know, one solution might work for you, that it doesn't work for a show that is, you know, actually at the top of your category right now for whatever reason.
And so I think the only way we are able to find that is by trying these different things out, feeling how they like resonate with us. Are these things we can be sustainable [00:14:00] with, we can keep up and be consistent with? And also, are they actually working to achieve whatever that goal is.
Eric Rutherford: No, that makes sense.
And kind of on those lines, it, it is freeing because then you at least know, Hey, I've got some flexibility. It is in some ways terrifying too because it's like, okay, I can't follow somebody else's script or their plan. Mm-hmm. or their me. I, I can use it as a guideline, but now I need to, I need to figure out what works and.
They're, I guess, great experimentation, great flexibility, freedom, little terror involved depending on, on where you're starting from ,
Jeremy Enns: but,
Eric Rutherford: but overall a lot of flexibility. And I'm kind of the same way. When I got into marketing, it was like, okay, this is, this is, this is more art than science. And, and we'll, we'll just sort of figure it out as we go.
Yeah. So. One of the things I think, especially businesses who, who have products or services, when they're thinking of podcasts, they're thinking, okay, how I want, I want to, I wanna build a community, I want to help people. [00:15:00] But at the same time, I really would like to, you know, generate some, some leads from this.
What's one thing that businesses can do help create those leads from their podcast that they may not realize. They may go into it thinking, oh, it has to be one specific way. What's something they may not realize can help them with that? .
Jeremy Enns: Yeah. I think it depends a little bit if how you're thinking, but if you're looking at actually converting customers, I would say the biggest thing is getting people onto the email list.
Whatever you have to do, just scrape and scratch and claw your way to getting people onto the email list somehow, because it's so hard to get people to take action just through a podcast. We can kind of build awareness of our products and services through the podcast, but actually getting them to buy or, or book a sales call or something like that, it's very difficult. So I would say, if you're looking at sales specifically, at some point you've got to get people on the email list and you can do a bunch of things. You can run ads to lead magnets or, you know, whatever kind of opt-ins are going to be effective there.
If we're looking at actually getting people onto the email list in the first place, if that's where you would kind of qualify as a lead. Then I think [00:16:00] there's, it's actually kind of part of the same thing. I already started down that idea is how can you incentivize people to get on the email list and getting off the podcast.
And so there are a lot of ways you can do that. I think a lot of the legacy type of lead magnets, checklists, and eBooks and things like that don't work as well as they used to. And so some of my, most of my best lead magnets have been like free email courses, things like that, or even video courses, and those have done a lot better.
A lot of times, I think with podcasting in particular actually looking at other audio content. And so one of the things that I've seen work really well is if you offer like bonus audio content, maybe it's like an audio course that they can get, they can listen to it in their, their podcast app. And a lot of like, I know transistor.
They allow you to host I think for free private podcasts as well. I think you might get unlimited shows with transistor, at least several of them. And some of those can be private. And so you could just host one on there, build a landing page and say, you know, you get this and it's an eight lesson, audio course on this topic, and you can start mentioning that in your shows.
And so, I think one of the things to think about is where is the, the least amount of [00:17:00] friction for getting people to take that next step? And often, people who listen to audio stuff, probably going to listen to, to other audio. And so an, an audio course or something like that, bonus episodes, things like that that only show up on that feed.
That's something that could be, be interesting as a way to incentivize people to get on the list. And then you could also look at, you know, other things like I mentioned that are more kind of video or email based, things like that, that are not audio based in particular. And then the last thing I would say is, When you have those things like run ads for them regularly and don't overload your listeners, like pick one each episode.
Maybe you have like one lead magnet that you're really promoting this quarter or whatever it is, and run that every episode for that quarter. You can choose whatever timeframe you want. It could be, you know, a month quarter. You could do it the same one for a year. If you've got one great lead magnet that converts really well, I would just keep doing that until it stops working.
But get it out in front of people and don't expect that the first time that you, you know, put it out there. People are going to sign up, but it's kind of this slow drip of like, there's the awareness. Mention it in your episodes more organically as well in addition to the ads. And really make sure that you're selling to people.
Like why? What are they getting from this thing that they're not getting from the podcast? Because I think that's the thing [00:18:00] that a lot of people are like, well, I'm, I mean, I'm already getting all this great information. Why do I need this other thing over here? I'd rather not be in my inbox. And so you kind of have to paint the picture for them of like, why, how this will add to their experience of what they're already getting.
Eric Rutherford: Now. That makes sense. And I'm in agreement with you on email. It's the funnel. The podcast is the funnel to the email for people who listening who may. Who may not be sort of on that email bandwagon, who may not see that. They're like, well, you know, I'm doing social, I'm doing other things.
What is it about email, especially that from podcast to email that that email really makes so much difference. .
Jeremy Enns: I think it's, it's what I was saying before of just like podcasts are, you know, and anybody listening to this who has a podcast, you've asked your listeners to take some kind of action, whether it's rating and reviewing the show or interacting on social or whatever it is.
And it's crickets. Like it is so hard to get people to take action. And then you think about, like, now we're going to try to get people, those are all free actions and maybe, you know, we, they don't see the, what the benefit is for them leading a rating and review. It's kind of just to help you out. So that's always a [00:19:00] little bit harder.
Ask if there's nothing kind of inherent. In it for them with a product, obviously they would see what the value is for them, but still now there's additional friction of they need to spend money to get it. And so I think when we're going from podcasting, like there's this idea of, I can't remember what the, the concept is, but it's kind of like people have certain psychology around different platforms.
And actually now as I'm saying it, it's called platform psychology. the most obvious name for the, the thing I couldn't remember. But essentially like people interact with different platforms in different ways, and so we kind of need to play within the bounds of that. a podcast. People are not in a shopping mindset.
They're not in a buying decision mindset necessarily. Whereas we've all bought things from our inbox, probably at some point or another. We've clicked on an ad from, you know, a store that we shopped at, that they're sending out their latest deals or whatever it is, or, you know, a creator that we like we're on their newsletter and they're launching their course, or whatever it is, and we've clicked through to that.
And so, The, the platform psychology around email is just way, there's way less friction between people taking action, and part of that is just being able to click a link and, and not have to remember something or go to the show notes where you're like, you're, you're driving right now and your phone's in your pocket, or [00:20:00] whatever it is.
And so I think like we wanna get them on a platform where, I guess for the first thing, We actually have control of that relationship. So we can send an email and we know it's going to hit their inbox, which is not true for social. And then also, I mean, then you look at social with links and things like that.
They suppress those. And so if we can get it to their inbox, we know they're going to see the links, they're going to see our, you know, our pitch, whatever it is, and then they're actually much more likely to follow through on that. And so, I, I think about it, a lot of like, email kind of holds up the sales side of things.
And then podcasting is all about kind of amplifying that that nurturing and that trust building, that relationship building with our a. I
Eric Rutherford: like that differentiation there with between email and podcasts and, and how they function together really. And, and, and, and that continuum. One more question before we get to the academy as, because I know as you're dealing, as you're dealing with strategy podcasts, you know, depending if they've.
If they've been doing a podcast for a year or two years, what's, is there a difference in the strategy between, [00:21:00] let's say, a new podcast and one that has some longevity to it, and what if so, what's the biggest difference between those?
Jeremy Enns: Yeah, I think about it more in term. I mean, so first of all, yes there is between like brand new and existing, but I think as you get into the existing level, like regardless of a show has been going for, you know, one year or five years, then I start to think about, it's more about like how many downloads are you currently getting?
How many people are actually listening to your show? And that's gonna. Kind of differentiate what you wanna do with the strategy there, because getting, you know, going from a hundred listeners to a thousand is going to be way different from a tactics and strategy perspective of going from 10,000 to a hundred thousand kind of on a downloads per episode basis.
And so at the, you know, the, the more downloads you have, the more scale you're looking for from your marketing and the fewer downloads you have. A lot of people wanna. The non-scalable phase of marketing and go straight to all the, the more scalable tactics like advertising and, and I mean even s e O and stuff like that.
But one of the things is that when you take a more non-scalable approach at the start, you have way more, you're kind of like marketing [00:22:00] your show through one-to-one interactions with listeners. You're participating in communities where they're hanging out, you're talking to people regularly. , and that's actually all the stuff that sets up the scalable activities for success because most of the scalable stuff, if you have an opportunity to get in front of 10,000 people on a podcast, guest appearance or something like that, , but you haven't really done the work to iron out how you talk about your show in a compelling way, or your product, or your service or whatever it is.
You're going to waste that opportunity and you're going to, you know, say something that is not really, it hasn't been honed that well, and so now you've like kind of gotten in front of this audience, but it didn't have the maximum impact. Whereas when you've had that conversation with, you know, 500 different people over the course of the past year, just by interacting communities, having the, you know, zoom calls dms, just engaging with people in general.
all of a sudden, you know, what gets people's eyes to light up and what turns them off, what confuses them? And so you know what buttons you need to press in your copy. And when you're giving your kind of one sentence pitch of your show and all of a sudden all of that stuff, then when you're broadcasting it more at scale, it just works way better or it works versus, you know, not working [00:23:00] at all if you haven't done that stuff.
So that would be kind of the differentiation there, I think between tactics in terms of the size, you're. And then I would say like, if you're just starting out, I think so much of that is just experimentation, which we've kind of talked about and like starting to figure out what even works at all, what feels good to you, what's resonating with your audience.
And then starting to take a bit more of a strategic approach and narrowing down those options when you start finding, you know, one or two things that actually work
Eric Rutherford: that makes sense. Breaking out by volume or download volume and thinking it through in those terms. I had not, I had not quite thought of it in those terms, but it makes, it makes so much sense versus longevity of the podcast.
So let's jump into the academy. What is the podcast Marketing Academy? I know that's something you had before you, you pivoted your business into more of a marketing strategy that that's kind of what you that's kind of where it started. What, what.
Jeremy Enns: Yeah, so it's essentially there's a, a few different offerings.
So I would say it's an educational and media company essentially. And so part of that I've got my scrappy podcasting newsletter, which is the main [00:24:00] kind of media arm right now. I've also got probably 200 blog posts that I haven't written regularly on the blog in the past year or so. But I'm getting back into that with a lot more kind of really in-depth detailed marketing tactics and strategies that are going.
Doing whole, like website redesign and everything that's going to be on there. And so that's kind of the, the media side of things. Also probably podcasts and stuff in the future. And then on the education side, we've got that kind of the main course which the course initially was just called Podcast Marketing Academy.
It was one course and now it's kind of outgrown that to become a full brand. Or we have additional workshops. We've got both a live six week cohort version of the course and then also a self-paced course which has more content, which is a little bit more kind of choose your own adventure to some extent, where that's.
Live cohort is much more focused on people at a specific stage specifically getting them to their first thousand downloads an episode. So if you're kind of below a thousand downloads an episode, the Live accelerator, six week accelerator, that's kind of really the, the pressure cooker designed to help get you there as fast as possible.
Whereas the self-pace course is going to have a lot more kind of options for people at different stages to kind of go through at your own pace. So [00:25:00] that's kind of where things currently stand.
Eric Rutherford: Is this for people if like who have started a podcast already? Is it for people thinking about starting a podcast? I didn't know. Is there kind of, who would that be for specifically?
Jeremy Enns: Yeah, so I usually say that it's the ideal student for us is somebody who is at least a year into their show.
And so they've kind of, if not outright mastered, they've really got the mechanics of production under their belt, and they're kind of ready to, they have a bit more bandwidth than mental space to start thinking about marketing. And that's just one of the things that I think, you know, all of us have to go through is like, if you've never produced a show before, just.
Not even if you're not producing it yourself, you're not doing the editing. Learning like how to think through and structure ideas in a compelling way. Get the, getting the guest outreach process sorted like this all just takes months to, to figure out and like at that point you, you can't take on all this new marketing information that then you need to focus on as well.
It's just, Too overwhelming. So usually I tell people like, just like focus on making a great show because you're not, your first episode is not going to be great. You know, focus on that for the first year. Get your workflow and your systems in [00:26:00] place. Focus on the content. And then at that point, when it starts to feel like you've got the muscle memory, it's starting to feel like second nature that you can create a great episode without, you know, really trying that much.
Then it's start time to start thinking about.
Eric Rutherford: That makes sense. Yeah. It for, if you got, if anybody listening, if, if you haven't started a podcast it, the other early stages, it's really about just learning how to do it and, and it's all process driven. Even if you don't produce your own episodes or edit your own episodes, there's still.
It's still production involved, so I appreciate that distinction and trying to let people get their show going. And then once you get that, then worry about the strategy and marketing behind that Let me just ask, since, since you brought it up as, as people are listening, it really is about sort of getting the first few episodes, I don't wanna say out of the way, but at least produced so you can start getting to the better episodes, so to speak.
Yeah. In terms of content and how you do that, would you wanna speak to that a little bit? Because I think some people feel like, oh, their first three [00:27:00] episodes have to be perfect.
Jeremy Enns: Yeah, I, I think that this is something we all feel I've felt, I feel this on every show that I've ever launched, even having launched many shows, both for myself and clients.
And so it's something you, you never really get over because every new show is kind of a new endeavor. And I think one of the things that we, what we. There's this disservice kind of, I mean, it's not intentional, but done by the industry of like the big, big shows come out with a Bang and it's like an amazing, you know, the, especially these short run series where maybe it's eight episodes and of course you don't have any time to, you know, develop the show over eight episodes.
You gotta like come out with eight solid episodes. But what we don't off actually often see is behind the scenes. A lot of agencies and studios that are developing those shows, they'll take three years to develop the show and they'll be doing work, work, shopping to content and they will be, you know, Working on the show for multiple years before it ever gets launched.
And much of that time is before they ever actually even start, you know, recording. Oh, they might do some recording, but it's not stuff that makes it to the air. And so we look at, you know, NPR shows and we're like, well they launched a new show and it was perfect. And it's like, yeah, they've been working on that for a number of years.
They probably recorded hundreds of hours of tape that [00:28:00] they never used because it wasn't good enough. They hadn't figured out the show yet. And I think that this is something that the more you talk to creators, the more you realize, like I, I saw and I started to pay attention to this because it's something I felt as well.
For me in my one newsletter, I'm on issue. I'm coming up on issue 150 or something like that. So I've been doing it almost three years now and I feel like it. probably like issue a hundred or 120, somewhere in that range, like within the past six months that I was like, oh, I actually finally know what this is about and like I finally have the through line.
And I struggled with that for two years. I was like, I don't know how to talk about it. I don't really know what this is. There's something here, but I can't articulate it. And I started seeing other people on Twitter. Somebody last week I saw that they had done like 250 episodes of their podcast and. I finally know what it's about.
I've been doing it this whole time, and I couldn't like get what, what is the frame around this thing? And I, I felt there's something here, but I couldn't explain it. And once you, you know that once you get to that point, it becomes easier to market because part of our job, part of the hard part of marketing is.
Conveying that kind of like intangible value of the show and the thing that binds it together into [00:29:00] something that people can understand and latch onto. And so that's, you know, one of the hard parts of, of messaging and that is there's just no shortcut to doing that. You just need to agonize over it and spend a lot of times, years and like hundreds of iterations like thinking through like.
What is the best way to talk about this thing? What is the through line in this? And you know, sometimes I think we do start with the through line and that's the, the core of the idea. Other times I think it just takes like, okay, I wanna create something about this, and it's getting better over time.
You're kind of honing and refining it and you're getting a more and more clear as you just keep going about, you know, what, what you actually have on your hands.
Eric Rutherford: It's a process and, and just hearing that from you, I know not only me, but listeners involved who, who are on, you know, listening to this at whatever point in their journey, it's like, yeah, it's just a process.
Hearing a hundred episodes, 200 episodes you know, 200 editions. Now I'm starting to get the feel for it. So there's, there's great freedom in knowing we don't have to have it perfect today, but, and, but encouragement that if I keep going, I'll know more. In, in, in that [00:30:00] process. Now, within, within your academy, you talk about four modules, foundation, content, connection, exposure.
When people go through the academy, is there one module that surprises them most by the results? Or is how do they interact with that?
Jeremy Enns: Yeah, it's, it's always the foundation stuff and it's funny. . I think anybody who is actually a marketer knows that everything that it kind of the foundation of your marketing strategy, nothing else will be effective.
People always think I need, I just need more people to know about the show. I just need more exposure to the show. And then when you start looking at the show, and I've done, you know, so many podcast audits and look, looking at the show and being like, The problem is not exposure. Maybe, well, maybe exposure is one of the problems, but if you get this in front of a million people, you are not going to get many listeners because there are problems with the messaging or the packaging or the, the content itself.
Maybe even if people do listen, they're probably not coming back. And so I think that that's always the stuff that people, I, I was really hesitant when I first. Launched the academy. I was thinking like, okay, like I know this is the most [00:31:00] important stuff, but I think I'm going to have to like, I don't know that people are going to wanna do this and so I'm going to need to kind of hold this, this carrot out in front of them saying like, yeah, we're going to get to all the exposure stuff.
It's coming, it's coming, but like first we gotta go through this. And I was so kind of gratified to see that people, like they had light bulb moments going through the more foundational stuff where they realized. . Okay. I thought I actually had a clear idea of who I, my ideal listener was. But I, I realized, you know, when I was, you know, forced to answer these homework assignments and I couldn't actually come up with anything of any real meaning, or it was just this vague surface level thing that could have accounted for, you know, 10 million people on the planet.
It was kind of like, oh, this is not very specific at all. And no wonder I'm having such a hard time identifying those people out in the wild and reaching them because it was just so vague. And so that was, that, that was the one for sure that has. I, I worried about it at the start and it even though I knew how important it was, but it turns out that my kind of assumption was wrong.
That people actually, after going through it, you know, they did see the value in it and it was, it's consistently like the thing that people mentioned in post course surveys of like the thing that changed things for them, gave them way more confidence and clarity on how to actually approach their [00:32:00] marketing.
Eric Rutherford: I love that the foundations and I, yeah, I'm with you. I, I, sometimes I forget the importance of it, and even though, you know, I'm, I'm a marketer, even though, you know, I'm always, you know, that sort of front and center, I, I, I still forget the importance of it or maybe It because the shiny object syndrome gets, you know, it just, it feels like, ooh, maybe if I just do X, but if the foundation's not there, it isn't going to matter.
Jeremy Enns: no .
Eric Rutherford: And then you also, like on your website you talk about five rules of good podcasting. I'm sorry, of good podcast marketing. So of those five, any one principle which is most important, or do you just. Keep all of them in.
Jeremy Enns: Yeah, so I, I think you can, anybody can, reading them, can go find them on, on the website at well, right now it's at podcast marketing academy.com, although currently doing a, a website redesign, so that may have moved by the time you're listening to this, but essentially the, the one that I think is, is probably most important is, this is the first one around marketing being holistic.
And so I think a [00:33:00] lot of times people think about marketing being a very narrow thing. They, and so often I had this conversation on Twitter with somebody the other day who was saying, Most podcasters don't have a budget to do marketing, and I thought, well, that's kind of a funny thing to say because advertising is such a tiny, like single digit percentage and totally optional.
aspect of marketing and advertising is one of the final steps in the process of marketing. There's the whole like actually creating a show that is marketable in the first place. There's all this foundational stuff and then there's all these other ways that you can get in front of people that ha don't require you to spend any money at all through, you know, collaborations or PR or whatever it might be, seo o.
And so I, I think that a lot of times people have this idea of what. Marketing is, and it is just this one narrow sliver of marketing. And I think what we need to realize is that marketing is actually this much broader thing. It's like all the things that contribute to somebody either listening to our podcast or to buying our product or service.
And so if you're looking at your, your whole business marketing, the podcast is one component of that, as is your product. If you're just looking at the podcast, then everything from, you [00:34:00] know, how you show up on social media and, and interact with your audience to the show itself, to, you know, the, the frame of the content.
So like what's the, the concept or premise of the show? All these things are part of marketing and it's kind of this whole journey of what are the things that get people to take this action. That's marketing and that's way more than just advertising. It's way more than any one tactic. And so I think keeping that in mind, it can be daunting, but I think it also helps us kind of realize when we're so focused on just doing one thing and we either say, well, I've done this and it doesn't work, or we see that and we're like, well, that's not an option for me.
Maybe like advertising because I don't have the budget. And we realize, oh, both of these things. Like they're not the whole picture of marketing. There actually is all this stuff that I, I haven't done. And maybe that's why, you know, even though I've been focusing a lot on this thing, I'm not getting results or I can't do this thing, but there's all these other things that I can do.
Eric Rutherford: Thank you so much for talking about the holistic nature of marketing. I, because people do, they think it is, it's advertising, it is just simply a, you know, the shout out, the promos, the everything else. And yet yeah, there's [00:35:00] so many pieces involved. And like you, like you said with the podcast, a podcast is part of the marketing and then, you know, It is holistic.
And so if you're listening, I encourage you. Remember marketing is a big process. There are lots of pieces, lots of opportunities. It's not just one thing. So I'd love to have you talk to, to various people at the organization I work at because I always love talking with them and they're like, well, you know, just, just send an ad or, or just do this.
I'm like, it doesn't quite work that way. .
Jeremy Enns: Yeah. Oh yeah. A classic struggle as a marketer. . Oh no.
Eric Rutherford: So either with the academy or with just with your, your consulting business. Any stories you wanna share in terms of people who, who have come in and, and like they've, they've just, it's really moved the needle as they have started to get these principles involved.
They've made these changes. Any stories you wanna share?
Jeremy Enns: So there's one that's top of mind. He actually shared it on Twitter just a few days ago actually, [00:36:00] and was totally kind of surprised by it. I'd heard a little bit of the story but wasn't expecting him to do a write a Twitter thread on it.
And so his name is Jeff, and when he came into the program, he was looking, he had a, a podcast can't actually remember what the name of it was now, but it was essentially like a show for kind of creators on helping them, you know, make. You know, newsletters, podcast, whatever that is, and also grow them.
And he was, you know, struggling to grow his own show. Wasn't, didn't have much traction with it. And so I think it was on our initial, welcome call after he joined the academy. And we were just, he kind of asking and he, he said in the thread, he is like, I was terrified to ask it. I didn't really want to, because I was, you know, worried about what he would say.
And he asked, do you think I should, should niche down further? Am I too broad with creators? And so he started talking and it turns out that he was really, what he really liked focusing on was YouTubers. That's, he'd always, he, he was a podcaster, but he'd always wanted to be a YouTuber, although at this point he was like, nah, actually, now I, I like podcasting more, but that's who I, I like being around.
That's the culture I like being a part of. And so those are the people I, I'd like to serve. And so I think within, I dunno how long it was, maybe within a month, he had kind of rebranded everything and focused on marketing for YouTubers and [00:37:00] almost immediate. He had so much traction. This I don't know if this is a great testimonial for me.
He had so much traction. He actually had to quit his podcast because he had so much inbound work and he didn't have bandwidth to do the podcast anymore. And it was just incredible to see the snap of the fingers, this is the thing you love to see as somebody who teaches marketing and teaches the value of being specific with an audience is just like when it works.
It can really work if you choose the right audience and you're, you know, the right person to be serving that audience. it was just so great to see that work so quickly for the him, even though it meant that he was no longer doing the podcast. And I think at this point, that was about maybe six months ago.
And I think he's gearing back up to get into the show now that he's got his operations more under control with the, the business side of things. But uh, yeah, , it was pretty that was the, the, the kind of craziest story, the most immediate impact that I've seen so far. And it was just from one simple thing that he did, which was just being more specific about who he was talking to and.
Eric Rutherford: Oh, that's beautiful. But, but it's also, an example of the power of finding your ideal audience, it's finding that niche that you're speaking to and that receives it. Even something simple like that can [00:38:00] do huge things. And even though, you know, he did quit the podcast, I understand that's sort of a mixed feeling.
Jeremy Enns: Yeah, .
Eric Rutherford: Oh. But, but just being able to, to see that in action is, is so powerful. Yeah. Just before we wrap up here, any takeaway that you'd like to leave with audiences who, who have a podcast, maybe they're struggling a bit, maybe they're even their business is thinking about getting into a podcast.
I'll let you kind of leave it open-ended on, on where to go with that. But any takeaways you'd like them to, to leave them?
Jeremy Enns: Yeah, I think we've covered a lot of the ground here, but I, I think the main thing is that we, we've kind of hinted at this a couple times, is that like the marketing that works best for you is going to be the stuff that you can actually be consistent with.
And so I think that comes down to marketing that's actually fulfilling for you in some way. It's enjoyable, it's maybe even fun, which, you know, these aren't things that we typically associate with marketing if we are not, you know, marketers by trade. And so I. Keeping that in mind like this, this should feel good at some point.
And there is a way out there. I pretty much guarantee it for everyone that [00:39:00] marketing can be fun and rewarding to do. And so it's about, you know, looking at what are the options out there, trying them and kind of like when you find that thing that works for you that you can be consistent with, that also works to grow the show.
Just go all in on that. Ignore everything else and maybe one day that thing is going to stop working. At that point you're going to need to do more experimenting to find out what does but milk that as long as it's working for you, because I think that that's such. A kind of rare thing that people, that the people who, who do grow their shows and their businesses, it's because they found some way to attract listeners and customers that actually, you know, it works for them.
They can be consistent and I think that that's what we're kind of all looking for.
Eric Rutherford: I like that. And even finding, yeah, if you're listening, find something that you like. So, you know, don't dance on TikTok if that's not your thing. But the same thing sometimes, it's a whole lot easier to work on something that you find enjoyable.
than it is to, to really feel like you have to slog through something that isn't, and that, that comes out in your work. So I appreciate that and if you're listening, it is absolutely true. So let me second that now, as we wrap up, if [00:40:00] listeners want to know more about you more about your work, the academy your consultancy, where would you like 'em
Jeremy Enns: to go?
Yeah, so I've set up a page for anyone who's listening to this show. You can find that at podcastmarketingacademy.com/buildthatpodcast, all one word. And I've got a free podcast marketing assessment there. You can take 20 questions, takes two minutes, and you'll get a kind of personalized breakdown that based on your responses that will kind of point out some of the potential gaps and opportunities in your marketing as it stands right now.
And you can also find my newsletters Twitter. All that kind of good stuff there, academy. So once again, that's podcastmarketingacademy.com/buildthatpodcast.
Eric Rutherford: Awesome. So I will make sure that gets in the show notes. If you're listening, check it out. Get the assessment, start following 'em on LinkedIn and Twitter . Jeremy just puts out a ton of great content and a wonderful source for podcasting and marketing both.
So, Jeremy, this has been just a, a delight today to, to chat with you and have you on the podcast really appreciate your,
Jeremy Enns: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Eric. [00:41:00] This has been a delight.